Hello my friends,

So many of you responded to last week’s newsletter with a very similar question. How do we talk with our friends and family who are as far right theologically and politically as I once was?

Honestly, this question is one of the most central questions I wrestle with as well. I touched on it here from a more general angle about talking with those who disagree with us. In this newsletter, I want to hopefully give some more effective ways of having meaningful conversations with our friends and family who have deeply embraced Christian nationalism.

But first, here are somethings that have me thinking this week:

-US 2.0: Win Hearts, Then Minds from Hidden Brain Podcast. This "US 2.0. series is so profound. I catch myself saying, "this is what Jesus was calling us to" several times during the two episodes they've published so far. This second episode specifically focuses on having tough conversations about politics. It was so very helpful and one I'll be going back to listen to again.

-How to Stay Sane in Brutalizing Times by David Brooks. This article from David Brooks was published November of 2023, yet it remains relevant today. David is one of those writers that inspires hope with what he writes. Something I strive to do as well.

-The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism by Tim Alberta. I am only in the middle of this book, but it is so exceptional. Very personal, very genuine, and very insightful. Tim grew up as an Evangelical Pastor's son and as an investigative journalist, he talks about the drift to extremism in Evangelical Christianity through the lens of his own story.

Okay, onto today’s content.

How To Love Our Christian Nationalist Neighbor

On a zoom call recently, someone asked me, “what is it that you really want? What is the main driver of your work in one sentence?”

I took a long pause to think about my answer. It was difficult at first to narrow it down to just one sentence and describe “what I want.”

I then said, “what I really want to help people to be better able to know their sacred value, know the sacred value of others, and then love themselves and others by upholding that sacred value.”

I couldn’t help but well up with tears as I said those words. I think that was a sign that indicated it is in fact what I really want.

As a follower of Jesus, a pastor, and writer, so much of what compels me about scripture and the gospel of Jesus is, when it is fully embraced, it really does set people free from hostility and animosity towards themselves and others. It gives people the strength to be gentle in a violent world. It gives people courage to be generous in a world that believes the myth of scarcity. It gives people a radical joy in choosing love for others rather than pursuing power over them. It cultivates a deep trust and commitment to pursuing what is good, true, and beautiful, no matter how chaotic the world becomes.

This and so much more is what I have learned from Jesus and this is truly what I want to partner with others in cultivating in our world.

What I heard from so many of your questions is that you really want a similar thing. I think we are all so exhausted and hurt by all the division and animosity. Things feel so deeply contentious right now and the hostility between people just seems to be rising, especially in an election year.

What we really want to pursue is connection and focus on our shared humanity together. What we really want to stop demonizing one another and see good and productive steps taken to care for one another well, both individually and collectively. What we really want is to stop fighting against each other and start working together for and with each other.

This genuine, true desire naturally brings up our question, “how are we supposed to do that? How are we supposed to talk with those in our lives who seem intent on stoking the fires of “us verses them?” Whose mantra seems to always be the maxim "if you're not for us, you're against us!"

So how can we talk to those like this in our lives?

I can only speak from my own experience as a pastor. As you can imagine, having difficult conversations is a central part of my work, both personally and professionally. Even when people find out I am a pastor in public somewhere, the tough questions start flying.

As a very analytical person, my tendency is to try to come up with a convincing argument, with all the supporting “facts.” When I hear their question or their pushback, I automatically begin to think of all the biblical scholarship, statistics, and data that will help me to accurately express what I believe to be going on.

While this might work with some, it rarely works with those who see the world completely different than I do, if at all.

The reality is, as human beings, we can become very passionate about our beliefs. Our political and religious perspectives are not just “ideas." They are rooted in our moral values and the very principles that guide our lives. They are intrinsically tied to who we are.

I have found that starting the conversation as if it is a “debate” is almost immediately counter productive and leaves both myself and the other person frustrated. I’m sure you’ve experienced this yourself both in person and online. Social media produces these kinds of conversations on steroids.

So, what I have found to be very effective is also something I have found to be very stretching for me over time. It is to suspend any thoughts about how wrong I think their perspective is and treat their perspective with the same value I give my own.

I know. Even writing that out I said to myself “that’s a big ask.”

But think about it. We usually have the most emotional struggles and pain from conversations we have with people whom we love the most. What people will tell me most often, from either side of the political/theological spectrum, is that they feel like their loved one doesn’t actually listen to them. They tell me "they just want to prove me wrong without ever hearing me out."

This isn't listening and it certainly wont bring about change.

Put the Heart First, Head Second.

This is why we have to focus on the person’s heart first, not their head. Instead of thinking of all the “facts” and data to support our argument, I have challenged myself to create space for the person to share their heart behind their perspectives.

This is when common ground can be found.

Since immigration is such a hot topic right now, I'll use it as an example.

When someone says they want the biggest wall and sharpest razor wire and the toughest immigration policies, and even deportation, and separation of families, instead of making moral judgments about them in that moment, I try to ask them why they feel that way.

Last time I did that with someone, they said “it’s an invasion of drug dealers and criminals, intent on destroying our way of life and harming our children.”

Now by treating their perspective as equally important as my own, I notice their concern behind their words.

I then responded by saying, “I’m hearing that you really care about your family and don’t want them to be harmed in any way.”

They immediately started to soften and said, “yes, that’s exactly how I feel.”

I said, “I really don’t want my family to be hurt in any way either. I wouldn’t want my community to be locked in drug dealing and crime either.”

They said, “yes, exactly!”

Since we were able to find common ground, I was able to then hear more of their fears and pain, which is where a lot of our political and moral outrage stems from.

Towards the end of the conversation, I gently said, “I like how we understand each other a little better now. I wonder how many families at our boarder are fleeing from places that are overrun by drug dealing and crime themselves. I wonder how many of them don't want their families harmed either. If they feel the same way we do, I wonder how that should shape how we treat them at our boarder.”

They said, “I hadn’t thought about that way before.”

Then the conversation ended and we moved on with our day.

My Goal Now

My goal in these conversations have really shifted from changing their minds to them knowing I care about them the same way I care about myself. After all, Jesus said, "love your neighbor as yourself."

Since I have been doing this in my ministry, not always successfully mind you, I have found that a change in perspective happens, not in a single conversation, but within an ongoing relationship driven by love.

An incredibly close friend of mine was so wrapped up in the New World Order conspiracy theory during Obama’s administration. They stockpiled guns, ammo, and canned goods, convinced that the end was coming for good Christian gun owning patriots just like him.

After talking with him about these things for several years, I’ll never forget how it came to a head one day. He expressed how terrified he was about what was going to happen to our country and his family. I saw the stress in his jaw and the fear in his eyes as he shared.

I broke down in tears because I loved him so much. I said, “you know, I am concerned about what this fear and stress is doing to you. I see it taking such a mental and physical toll on you because you care for others so much. But I think Jesus sets us free from that fear and invites us into a life of love instead. I think being invited to trust in him doesn’t mean we aren’t concerned about our future or our society, but it does mean we relate to those concerns differently. It means we can rest in him and think about being a peacemaker like him, rather than responding to conflict with more conflict and violence with more violence in our world.”

We then sat in silence and cried together.

Since that conversation and numerous others since, I have seen his countenance change entirely. He is still a Christian and a still a conservative, but by the time the 2016 election came along, he had developed an immunity to conspiracy theories and harsh rhetoric that stoked fear and animosity towards other people. He is appalled by what he is seeing being done by Christian Nationalism and he is dedicating himself to the work of peace. I honestly cannot believe the change I’ve seen in him. I so admire his willingness to change and grow.

Think Of Peter

One of the people in scripture I think illustrates this dynamic well is Peter. Peter had all sorts of ideas about the kind of messiah Jesus needed to be. So much so that he rebuked Jesus for even suggesting that he was going to be crucified. You can’t overthrow Rome and restore Israel with a dead messiah.

Over the years Jesus journeyed with Peter, he continued to speak with him, grow in friendship, and deepen their relationship. But even towards the end, Peter still wasn’t catching on. He hacked a mans ear off thinking he was “standing up for Jesus” and watched Jesus heal the man’s ear while telling Peter to put his sword away. Peter even denied Jesus because his expectations of how God should work simply didn’t line up with how God was working through Jesus.

Then we see a remarkably different Peter in Acts and 1 and 2 Peter. Where there was hostility, we now hear grace and mercy. Where there was a violence against his enemies, we hear him telling others to conduct themselves in sympathy, humility, gentleness, and respect. His heart was radically transformed by love.

How did this happen? Jesus taught with authority, said and did so many powerful things, yet as powerful as these things were, Peter still didn’t get it even at the foot of the cross. So what happened? He saw someone who loved him deeply, Jesus, embody that love fully and completely with their entire life, even to the point of death. It was that love that then raised Jesus from the grave. It was that love that changed Peter forever.

Imitate The Love You Want To See

This is something I am continuing to learn as well. We can get so convinced that we need to change people’s minds through debate or conversation, but what really changes people is living a life dedicated to love.

So my friends, have the hard conversations. They really do matter. Let them know how much you care. Try to find common ground, but know change won’t happen in an instant. People rarely change like that, including ourselves. Know that your life, dedicated to loving others to your best, including socially and politically, is what will ultimately bring about the change we want to see in those who oppose us.